to get bad. and so maybe there is time to -- to -- i don't know if you want to say play that game or use that strategy, but to hold firm and decide that then when the pressure is really on you might be playing with even a stronger hand and obviously a new congress, as well, potentially. >> yeah, that's right. the fiscal cliff is a bluff. now, defaulting on the debt, that's something real. you could spark some global financial crisis. but the fiscal cliff, people are going to wake up january 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and nothing substantial will have changed. because these are cuts that are phased in, it'll take a long time for the withholding to start hitting people's paychecks, and even after withholding starts hitting people's paychecks, you're not going to see an immediate change in spending that would have some type of immediate and cataclysmic effect on the economy. what does immediately change is december you have the bush tax rates in effect. january, you have the clinton tax rates in effect. democrats are better off negotiating from the clinton rates and then they're saying, okay, look